Roma are ‘cornered like powerless animals’
Prague 2007: Common Ground
Jitka Chalankova is deputy district commissioner for social affairs in the Czech city of Olomouc.
There are other minorities in the Czech Republic — Vietnamese, Ukrainian, Slovak and Chinese. Why are problems of Roma so “visible”?
These problems are increasing in every locality in this republic. Roma have been here for a long time and there are a lot of them. Vietnamese and Ukrainian have been here only for a short time. The problems we have now might be a result of the time of communism. A lot of things were ignored and those which were solved were not solved in the best way. I’m referring primarily to the forced assimilation. Roma families were forced to listen to what to do and how they should live.
Why is it so hard for them to find a job?
They are very specific group. It is a long-term process and the jobs they are qualified for, or are used to doing in generations past, like helping in agriculture, are disappearing. Because of lack of motivation for education beyond the most basic, Roma people in general are unskilled laborers. Also with the transformation of our economy these many of these jobs for unskilled laborers vanished, and it is really impossible that all of them will find new jobs in computers or in offices or something. It’s just a fact that the Roma don’t get a good education. Many of them were forced to go to “alternative schools” even when it was not necessary. Their position in the labor market is therefore very hard.
Roma are discriminated against, according to more than two-thirds of Czechs. Why is that?
Roma really live completely differently than we do. The misunderstanding is on both sides. They do not understand our world and we do not understand theirs. Their worldview is unacceptable to us, and they do not accept our way of life, either. I think that to join these different views somehow is simply impossible.
Why is that? You really do not see a possibility?
We are somehow forcing them to live like we do. We are forcing them to accept our rules and manners. It would be definitely much easier if they will do that. But they feel threatened by this pressure, they feel like being cornered and they stop trusting the society they live in. And what you start to do when you feel you are being cornered? You attack. That is what they do. It is true, that they, for example, buy things they have no money for. That is because they are in such debt that they do not care. They are cornered like powerless animals and only thing that can happen to them is repossession of the things they have. They do not see a way out.
It is true that Roma do not see the future? They do not plan or even see some future effect of what they do now?
They really do not “see the future,” they are unable to plan anything and what they do not see stops existing for them. On the other hand they are the people for whom it is easiest to just enjoy the moment. That is something we can envy in them. But their need to live in extended families and the inability to plan things are so specific that they simply cause tensions in the society. Also their sometimes-strange traditions or customs: their traditions are unwritten and they tell them through songs or stories, or their anxiety about and emphasis of the cleanliness of their homes… All these things they take with them from their homelands, India and Bangladesh. For example they clean their carpets almost every week. It’s a tradition. Or they throw away food that’s more than one day old. We see it as wasting. But in India food went bad very easily.
Is every Roma like this or are there any differences?
We imagine that Roma is one closed unified community. It is not. There are mostly very extended families or castes and therefore there is no representation. The most important people are fathers of the families in their productive (working) age. They are not like us in this – we have our public organizations, government, local authorities, and so on. They do not. Sometimes they can not agree on a simple thing among them!
Roma people seem to be proud and want us to recognize their culture. Why, then, do some say they are not Roma, but Czech, when asked their nationality?
It is true. Even though they are rooted in their tradition they do not apply for Roma nationality but Czech or Slovak. When we conduct a census in the Czech Republic, we count only a few thousand Roma. But thanks to social workers we know that there are about two hundred thousand of them! You ask how this is possible. I think there can be more reasons, but one reason is that historically, when they claimed Roma nationality, they were deported, evicted, or displaced. Every time. And maybe this is something they carry in themselves.
Is the majority trying to help Roma in any way?
For sure! Roma become police assistants or social workers, in some places helping in hospitals or in schools. It’s easier for them to enter and work in Roma communities, on the other hand they learn how the majority works and they take its manners as theirs. But it is true, that there are just a few Roma who do this. So talking about some good influence… well, hopefully…Not only do I think that to solve this “problem” and ease tensions might take decades or maybe even centuries. This work is very frustrating; you see one step forward and three steps backwards. But it is necessary to do something. This problem is already a crisis.
What do you think should be done?
We have two possibilities: To solve this crisis or not to solve it. If we just let it be, it will get worse and worse and very quickly.
Why are towns still deciding to build ghettos?
It is because a housing policy now after some reforms depends only on local governments. So they can decide themselves how to solve a housing crisis for underprivileged people and nobody has the right to tell the city what to do. And that might be a problem. In some places, they decide to build ghettos, in some places they decide to spread out these people among other citizens. But it is not that easy.
The problem is there are no low-rent flats?
Exactly. Many towns just privatized low-income or public-housing flats. Now they do not have any. Also, towns can set their own rules about who will get a town flat and who won’t. So if there is somebody who they don’t want to give a flat to, they can evict him very easily. Where? That is another question. But if we force these underprivileged people to live apart from schools, work opportunities and even social workers, there is enormous space then for drug addiction, rise of criminality, loan sharks and repossessions—things they were historically not used to.
Where can it lead?
I don’t think we are far from reaching the point where Paris, France, was two years ago. The frustration and poverty can very easily change into violence against the majority. So to do nothing makes the situation just worse. And to do something is a very thorny way.
After the municipal government of Vsetín moved the Roma into ghettos—against the protests of the ombudsman, the European Union and prestigious NGO’s (Non-Governmental Organizations)—why do you think these forced relocations became acceptable?
You’ll have to ask the towns’ officials. But I think it is very easy to move extended families or communities out of cities. But that does not solve the problem you have: it just hides it. As I talked to many experts, they agreed on not creating localities where unemployed or poor people live. These places are often away from schools or any social services. The experts suggest spreading them among people who are luckier in the way they live.
And what do you suggest? What is the view of the Olomouc district?
The most important thing is not to underestimate the need for basic education of these people. That means helping kids of pre-school age. If this is done, a hundred percent of them can enter “normal” school. Then it is necessary not to underestimate the transfer to high or practical school. There is an understandable but huge drop in willingness to continue studying after basic school, mostly because the child has no family support. Parents sometimes tell the child that to study is worthless, because nobody will give him a job. That is party really true. Even an educated Roma can end up as a digger for the same money he would be paid in a field of work he had studied for. Or he can stay at home and receive social benefits because the system allows him to do so.
Who actually receives most of these social benefits?
The system of social security is demotivating. There are no arguments about that. It does not force you to take even a low-paying job. But because it is objectively much harder for Roma to get a job, they receive a lot of money to fill their basic living need. It is not true that Roma people misuse these benefits. They work the same for everybody in this country. And for people who need it there are lot of organizations and NGO’s.
Is it appreciated work, helping Roma in their struggle with the majority?
Well, whoever cares about Roma and tries to help Roma children with finishing school or just does anything still fights prejudice and hate. Whoever evicts people from town wins the elections. But no one, I think, can believe somebody who thinks he is a magician and knows a medicine or a spell to cure the situation we are in. No magic can help here, just ant-like daily work—work that is small, piece-by-piece, a big job over the long term, but with a lot of energy. And Mr. Čunek (the former mayor of Vsetín) should not be angry with me, when I am saying that.
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